Hepolite Vs. LF Harris Forged Con Rods - Unit 650

[NM Bonny]

I noticed that you can get Genunie Hepolite H Beam 4340 Steel Con Rods direct from the UK for considerably less than LF Harris forged ones here in the U.S., and far less than (for instance) Map Cycles' in-house H beam 4340 rods.

Any opinions on which are better? My initial impulse would be the Hepolites, but I'm curious to hear what people think. $230 seems like a decent deal for rods that presumably would last a lifetime and have less rotational mass than forged...?

 

[Rudie]

"Hepolite" was originally a marketing name for Hepworth & Grandage pistons, supplied to BSA/Triumph and other British vehicle makers; Hepworth & Grandage were part of the British Associated Engineering (AE) Group, later acquired by Federal Mogul. Afaik, neither H&G nor AE ever made connecting rods, as BSA/Triumph made theirs.

Any old British manufacturing name now preceded by "Genuine" (e.g. "Genuine Lucas") is Wassell, that never had any connection to H&G, AE or FM (or to the original Lucas company) ... Wassell also uses old British manufacturing names to brand stuff the original companies never made - e.g. "Girling" on Lockheed-pattern brake calipers and master cylinders.

Firstly, are you sure the current rods need replacing? John Healy (past Triumph dealer, now owner of wholesaler Coventry Spares, past racer sponsor and engine builder) has posted on BritBike he measures rods accurately; as long as there is no ovality in either end, no elongation (not even a one thou increase in ends centre to centre) and the ends' axes are exactly parallel, he reuses the rod. If you cannot check the rods accurately enough yourself, guessing your engineer friend can?

Nevertheless, if you feel you must replace the rods:-

. Neither Wassell nor Harris have great reputations for quality control.

. High revving piston engine, you really want them on the ends of cheap connecting rods?

. If you do not want to pay for Carillos, Arrows, etc., MAP and their rods have been around a long time, have an excellent rep?

 

[NM Bonny]

"Hepolite" was originally a marketing name for Hepworth & Grandage pistons, supplied to BSA/Triumph and other British vehicle makers; Hepworth & Grandage were part of the British Associated Engineering (AE) Group, later acquired by Federal Mogul. Afaik, neither H&G nor AE ever made connecting rods, as BSA/Triumph made theirs.

Any old British manufacturing name now preceded by "Genuine" (e.g. "Genuine Lucas") is Wassell, that never had any connection to H&G, AE or FM (or to the original Lucas company) ... Wassell also uses old British manufacturing names to brand stuff the original companies never made - e.g. "Girling" on Lockheed-pattern brake calipers and master cylinders.

Firstly, are you sure the current rods need replacing? John Healy (past Triumph dealer, now owner of wholesaler Coventry Spares, past racer sponsor and engine builder) has posted on BritBike he measures rods accurately; as long as there is no ovality in either end, no elongation (not even a one thou increase in ends centre to centre) and the ends' axes are exactly parallel, he reuses the rod. If you cannot check the rods accurately enough yourself, guessing your engineer friend can?

Nevertheless, if you feel you must replace the rods:-

. Neither Wassell nor Harris have great reputations for quality control.

. High revving piston engine, you really want them on the ends of cheap connecting rods?

. If you do not want to pay for Carillos, Arrows, etc., MAP and their rods have been around a long time, have an excellent rep?

Yes, I can easily measure my rods--when the time comes for a bottom-end rebuild--and if they're sound, I may elect to reuse them. But I wanted to have a lighter, stronger set in-hand for whenever I do need to replace them--or if I simply want to build a durable, higher-revving engine.

The H-beam design is very popular with automotive high-performance engine parts manufacturers and with racing engine builders, because of the high strength-to-weight ratio. And 4340 is an excellent grade of material for high-stress internal engine parts like con rods. Hence my interest in the Hepolite rods (which come balanced), and the far more expensive MAP lookalikes.

Thanks for taking the time to weigh in, as always.

 

[speedrattle]

i use MAP rods routinely to 8500 rpm for a short time when racing, and up to 9000 rpm on one unintelligent run. the rods have been foolproof.

whatever you get, pay close attention to the rod bolts. apparently there are counterfeits running around the internet made from ordinary drill rod, which fail pretty quickly. the MAP rods come with ARP bolts, which are very very good if you dont reuse them too many times.

i use rod bolts one time, and put in new ones if i have to disasemble the bottom end. for setups and measuring and so on, i have bolts painted so that i dont use them in a rebuilt motor.

 

[NM Bonny]

i use MAP rods routinely to 8500 rpm for a short time when racing, and up to 9000 rpm on one unintelligent run. the rods have been foolproof.

whatever you get, pay close attention to the rod bolts. apparently there are counterfeits running around the internet made from ordinary drill rod, which fail pretty quickly. the MAP rods come with ARP bolts, which are very very good if you dont reuse them too many times.

i use rod bolts one time, and put in new ones if i have to disasemble the bottom end. for setups and measuring and so on, i have bolts painted so that i dont use them in a rebuilt motor.

Thanks for this, Kevin - I suspected that you might have some experience with H-beam con rods in these engines. Cool, I'll mull over which to get...

I agree 100% on the ARP fasteners. I used them throughout for the engine I hand built for my first-in-the-world (longitudinally oriented - i.e., non-Mini) A-Series intercooled supercharger setup for Spridgets and Moggys (see pics). Painting them is a good idea to avoid inadvertent reuse I hadn't thought of; thanks for the suggestion.

BTW - that ordinarily excellent Payen head gasket in the second pic didn't cut it under 5 psi of boost. I ended up with a Cometic MLS gasket, which was still leak-free when I sold the car. I'd driven the little beast well over 100 mph (don't know just how fast, as the speedo only reads up to 100) on northbound I-25 up the hill out of Albuquerque (3.9:1 rear end and Datsun 5-speed), so very satisfied with those gaskets.

I have Cometic MLS head gaskets on my '51 FL Pan-Shovel (the base gaskets don't work well due to variations in the 73-year-old deck, so I reverted to standard material gaskets with Ultra Grey to stop oil leaks). I don't see MSL gaskets being made for the Unit 650/750s, though. Do you run the stock-style, solid copper head gaskets?

 

[NM Bonny]

Huh... so, Classic British Spares sells the Hepolite H-beam 4340 Steel Con Rods for $450--and they specifically state that the manufacturer does ship them with ARP fasteners.

However, Draganfly sells the identical product for $229, so with shipping from the UK, still around $200 cheaper. I hate it when domestic vendors gouge cyclists like that...

 

[speedrattle]

what is the shipping from draganfly? today's base price for those rods is a bit more, US$274.

thats still a $176 dollar difference between them and the CBS price with free shipping. certainly it wouldnt cost that much to post them from britain.

would it?

 

[NM Bonny]

what is the shipping from draganfly? today's base price for those rods is a bit more, US$274.

thats still a $176 dollar difference between them and the CBS price with free shipping. certainly it wouldnt cost that much to post them from britain.

would it?

Their shipping is quite cheap. I paid <$6.00 for an envelope of a dozen small parts on an earlier order, which netted far less than any domestic vendor of the parts... I'll ask them--but no, it shouldn't be very much.

I'm seeing 180.95 BPS for their listing, which in U.S. dollars is $228.63 (per a generic online currency calculator); could be a bit higher per Dragonfly's calculation... but $274? Regardless, I agree that this seems like a great deal.

I am waiting to hear confirmation that they, like CBS, ship them with ARP fasteners in the box--but I can't see why they wouldn't, as evidently that's a Hepolite practice (presumably, tomorrow they'll email me back).

 

[speedrattle]

huh

now i get $228 from my currency converter. before it was $274. go figure.

CBS is often a bit more expensive. i buy stuff from them anyway to keep em in business. but those rods are pretty high.

dont forget that hepolite is a purchased trademark of wassell.

 

[NM Bonny]

huh

now i get $228 from my currency converter. before it was $274. go figure.

CBS is often a bit more expensive. i buy stuff from them anyway to keep em in business. but those rods are pretty high.

dont forget that hepolite is a purchased trademark of wassell.

Oh, gotcha. Who knows with online software?

Yes, Rudie filled me in on the Hepolite-Wassell connection. However, these look to be nicely made. Oh - and in addition to asking about the ARP fasteners, I inquired whether they take the standard small-end bushes. Presumably, they do.

I also like keeping small domestic outfits in business--like KM (Kyle) Jones, who's working on a 46-tooth sprocket with Rebel Gears for our conical rear hub bikes (thank you for the tip). But, heck, I'm a social security pensioner in pretty short order, so the savings means I could buy new parts for the primary, or clutch, if needed.

 

[NM Bonny]

Here's what Draganfly said:

"Yes sorry, I didn't mention they are provided with ARP 2000 high-tensile rod bolts."

So, I'm ordering a set to have on hand for whenever get into the bottom end. Seems like a great deal, and they'll likely last as long as I will...

 

[NM Bonny]

I note that, presumably based on my queries, they've just updated their website description to add mention of the ARP high-tensile fasteners. I'll post what shipping is when they tell me, but based on the parts I've ordered from them in the past--including heavier tools--it won't be much.

 

[NM Bonny]

Shipping is £5.17, or $6.53, estimated. I went ahead and ordered a duplex crank primary pulley, too, as those are also competitively priced. I did not order small end bushes, as I can't know in advance of the rebuild--which could be years down the line--whether I'll need oversized or standard.

 

[NM Bonny]

Well, rats, the rods are backordered. However, when they get here, I'm going to do some research into which of the 750 kits is the best blend of value and quality.

My idea is to ultimately end up with a mildly modified '71 OIF Bonneville 750, with the DIY 11.5" front disc brake setup discussed toward the end in this thread, and either 20/47 final gearing (in hand already), or--if Kyle Jones is successful in working with Rebel Gears to produce a 46-tooth conical hub rear chain ring--a final drive ratio of [x]/46 to suit the more powerful engine.

I'm assuming that with the larger displacement power plant, I'll want to go ahead with the Dunstall replicas discussed here to let the engine breathe--which suggests a related decision re: whether to stick at that point with crossover pipe headers or true dual pipes. I think Speedrattle mentioned elsewhere that he somehow adapted later model head pipes to his early-model Unit 650 head...?

And I will seek advice and data on smoothing the intake ports and the viability of larger valves in a Unit 650 head like mine, plus the best valve springs and rocker setup (I've seen mention of shimming the rockers rather than the OEM setup with springs).

I should note in this regard that I machined the rocker shafts in my '51 FL to achieve consistent .008" end play without resorting to shims (see pics showing process and fixed-thickness spacers), so am eager to learn whether that is a viable approach with this machine.