Some Progress In Finding More Engine Performance

dynajohn

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FINALLY received the new air box inlet from Raisch in Germany. Very nicely made. It is a raidused part which should reduce air turbulence at the air box inlet. I am also making some further changes to reduce the bikes weight and possibly squeeze a little more performance out of it by increased efficiency.

As originally stated when I started this project the goal is to get as much performance increase as I can from the Triumph Thruxton 1200 without getting into internal engine work (other than a bolt in cam change with stock valve springs) and retain the streetability of the bike. So far this has worked out.

John
 
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brooke

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Thanks John. I am keeping track of your progress while dodging the storms that dumped on New England. My buddy gets back from New Orleans this week end so will be planning to head south soon. Always wanted to see the " Derby ". All the best Brooke. Ps think I will order the Tec decat as they now have distribution in the USA !
 

P Watkins

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View attachment 40527View attachment 40528View attachment 40527 My 2016 Thruxton R has undergone further testing to see if we could get more HP out of the 1200 CC motor. This was never an attempt to get additional performance through radical changes like increasing displacement, cylinder head porting, or installing a race cam which would require replacement valve springs. The modifications currently are a power commander 5, Vance & Hines (Triumph) slip on's with DB plugs removed, a cat delete, removal of the upper portion of the air intake snorkel, installation of a mild cam designed by Chad Wells & dyno tuning by Chad Wells at Commonwealth Cycle in Louisville KY. We completed the cam install, testing & tuning on 8/18/17.

Before I get into the results I want to discuss how Triumph designed some limitations into the 1200 Triumphs in order to achieve a broad torque band and still achieve the HP target they wanted on the Thruxton. First the cam was designed with negative overlap which helps produce great low & mid range torque and with sufficient duration and valve lift to reach they're HP target. The exhaust pipes which are double wall have a outer diameter of 1.759 inches (44.7 mm) and a inner diameter of 1.494" (37.95 mm). The inner inlet & outlet diameter of the stock cat & the cat eliminator is further reduced to 1.363" (34.64 mm). The inside diameter of this exhaust system is designed to produce high velocity and boost torque. Triumph did use two crossover pipes (one in front of the engine and the second ahead of the cat) to reduce back pressure. The bikes ECU which controls fueling, ignition & throttle position as well as the ABS & traction control has at least one major restriction we have found. In road mode the throttle plates are closed from 100% open to 80% open at 6,750 RPM. In sport mode the same thing happens but at 7,000 RPM instead of 6,750 rpm. The stock ECU setting for the rev limiter is 7,300 RPM.

Chad Wells used Web Cam (large US aftermarket cam grinder) and specified a replacement cam with more duration, different CL's, and the same lift as the stock cams. This cam design is a first attempt at a drop in street cam that uses the stock valve springs. Chad also used the power commander 5 rev extender feature to increase the rpm limit from the stock 7,300 to 7,700 RPM. We could not do anything about the ECU reducing the throttle openings from 100% to 80% at 7,000 rpm. You can see the effect of closing down the throttle opening from 100% to 80% on the blue line (run file 003). The blue lines are the dyno HP & TQ with the bike completely stock after it was broken in on Commonwealth's dyno 2/08/17. The red lines (run file o49) are the results now. Current HP is 94.04 and TQ is 78.11. The cam has increased HP & TQ from 3,700 to 7,700 rpm. I think there is 100 plus HP potential if the ECU can be re-programmed to eliminate the throttle plate restriction above 7,000 rpm as well as reducing the exhaust restriction caused by the small inner pipe diameter. I am sugView attachment 40527View attachment 40528 gesting larger ID primary pipes that connect directly to the mufflers. I am attaching a dyno sheet and four pictures of the cam install and my bike in Chad's dyno room.
I have done similar changes to my R here in AU with the same results, although Ive not done cams but have taken 1 tooth of the front sprocket that was custom made. Had a few detractors here in Australia that wont believe that removing cat and opern exhaust will give you 14 + AFR. I also changed oxygen sensor the wide band to gain more information and control and added EGT sensor to right hand engine pipe.
Screenshot 2018-01-03 19.54.17.png
 

Attachments

  • Power comander Auto tune install (7).jpg
    Power comander Auto tune install (7).jpg
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  • Lambda EGT bungs fitted. (1).jpg
    Lambda EGT bungs fitted. (1).jpg
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P Watkins

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NOTE, as no after market air filter (better flow) were available here in AU I have left the intake STD (not removed snorkel) The gains so far have been great and show 94 Hp on the dyno used, so expect when I get to intake there maybe an increase of power at higher RPM. Looking at over all gains of 12 to 15% from STD when tune is done. I have done 4 bikes here and first run as stock all had AFR high 13's and 84 to 86 HP, mine being the lowest at 84 hp after 600k of highway bead in work.Lambda EGT boss install (1).jpg
 

Greyfell

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Does the Dortmunder give you extra performance, also? BBEER
 

Greyfell

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I wish we could still get Dortmunder here in the States.
 

dynajohn

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Nice write up on modifications, keep us posted if you make any more progress. I am currently sidelined after eye surgery but I have stuff on my bench waiting install and testing. Next step is twofold.
1. Install larger raidiused inlet to airbox.
2. Mod to reduce bike weight and reduce friction losses & dyno test again.
 

brooke

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John. Best wishes for a speedy recovery . Will be looking forward to more reports when you are up to it. Still very cool here in Gods country but have set May 5 as the day for blast of to the Appalachians so will have to turn on the heat in the garage to prepare the Tiger . Ordered the Montone decat instead of the Tec unit. Looks like a better piece,well made and direct from Wales keeps the price down for Canadians. Keep your chin up and all the best. Brooke
 

dynajohn

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Not that I could ride right now anyway because of eye surgery but we have had more rainy cold days here than is usual. I have a riding class scheduled in late may with Jim Ford's riders workshop in the appalachians. I have read about Jim's classes for years which take place on Appalachian mountain roads and emphasize the art of riding smooth. Very much looking forwars to this experience despite the fact that I have been riding the Applachians for over 30 years. You will love the roads.

John
 

brooke

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John . . Received the Montone x pipe yesterday from Wales. Definitely impressed with its construction and good looks , of course hopefully will never see it once installed. Despite being about 25% more than the TEC unit still got it landed here in Canada for about 160.00 US $ , a considerable savings over getting the TEC stateside. Have a great day. Brooke
 

iGadget

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Are you going to do before/after dyno runs on the Montone? Nobody has done one yet, so we have no idea how it performs.
I like the fact it has a large volume, as that seems to give the best performance, but my only concern is that there's no sharp split to the two outlets, so it may get a bit turbulent in there.
It will be interesting to compare the Montone to all the other models.
 

iGadget

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NOTE, as no after market air filter (better flow) were available here in AU I have left the intake STD (not removed snorkel)
The gains so far have been great and show 94 Hp on the dyno used, so expect when I get to intake there maybe an increase of power at higher RPM. Looking at over all gains of 12 to 15% from STD when tune is done. I have done 4 bikes here and first run as stock all had AFR high 13's and 84 to 86 HP, mine being the lowest at 84 hp after 600k of highway bead in work.

I don't quite understand that dyno chart printout. It says 93HP in pen, but the axis says that's 83HP?
Definitely remove the snorkel. If you look at the chart you can see there's a slight torque dip between about 4-5-6K rpm, and that is eliminated by removing the snorkel. Re 12-15%... well probably not without new cams. Unfortunately the stock setup seems to be restricted by the cams and/or heads, and no amount of opening or free-flowing intake or exhaust gives particularly impressive results, but things like removing the snorkel and cat will give noticeable torque improvements in the mid-range.
 

brooke

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Thanks for the input IG ,all is welcome. Without a local Dyno,my dyno is turning out to be the www.Luckily there is lots of info out there which speaks favourably about the people who purchased and enjoy these motorcycles.Can see your concern about the outlet split on the Montone but you would have to handle it to appreciate how well constructed and finished it is.The bottle neck on these bikes is of course the throttle pull back at high rpm and the rev limiter in the stock ECU which Mr. Ghul is going to correct for us soon, right dyno,. Agreed on the HP #s , if the modification , in my case x pipe and intake , can increase the torque by 5% then the HP will gain 5% as well (etc,etc/5252) so best I could hope for would be 90 hp or so but more noticeable/ useable would be the grunt increase from 4 k to the peak. Thanks again for your interest and contribution.... Brooke
 

iGadget

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Well, it's not so much a "concern" about the Motone design as an "interest" :) The Moto Trio x-pipe gives poor performance because it has restrictors, and some with little cross-over lose out on some torque (as do the straight through headers) so I'm just interested to see how the design fares.
can increase the torque by 5% then the HP will gain 5% as well
Yes, but not peak HP, and unfortunately that's what people like to brag about. We got about 5-7HP all the way up the mid-range, which is great for real-world use, but most of the gains are lost near the red-line. If people stopped obsessing with the peak HP and understood torque graphs it would make things a lot easier :)

Cracking the ECU is a complex problem, and while Mr Ghul might be able to do it for a range of other bikes, the Triumph ECUs are password locked with a different password for each bike. It also has a "3 strikes and you're out" protection that bricks the ECU if you fail three times, so I'm guessing that without cracking the unit open and reading the ROM directly he's not likely to be able to make any changes. We've got masses of ECU reading and tuning equipment, but nothing will work with the latest Triumph ECUs yet, so don't hold your breath.
 

dynajohn

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As far as I know Guhl has not had a Triumph ECU in his shop to date. I had a really good relationship with Don when he agreed to work on a re-flash for the Honda VFR-1200. My tuner at Commonwealth Motorcycle has also worked with Don on Ducati ECU tuning issues. Don has not agreed to take on the new Triumphs as far as we know here despite our best efforts. He told me he has as much work as he can deal with other projects at present. So at present there is nobody that I know of that has cracked the Triumph ECU. Raisch in Germany is aware of the throttle software problem and said they were working on a solution. Whether they will have more success than others who have tried remains to be seen. This problem is the main impediment in my case to getting more streetable HP out of this bike. I see no point in getting further into performance modifications to the motor as long as the throttle plates are limited to 85% over 7,000 RPM's. I have moved instead to trying to get better efficiency out of what is there by reducing friction losses in the motor and drive line as well as reducing weight.
 
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brooke

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If VW diesel escapade is any indication going to have break out the hacksaw or find those 48 mm mikunis from The Blizzard. Am already working on the weight reduction though.Went for a test spin a couple of days ago to make sure the heated grips and suit were ok ,they were but the pants were a bit snug so droped a kilo or two and hopefully more.Want to be in fighting trim for the kids in full leathers when Tigger and I scrape our way around the Dragon. Hope you’re feeling better Dyno.....
.BrookeFD2E3523-671E-49A9-A5A5-8794A0A57B90.jpeg
 

dynajohn

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The right eye is healing after surgery Brooke. I go into see the doctor again the first week of May. If everything is OK I will get a new prescription for lenses. Sure hope I am able to attend Jim Fords class in the Appalachians May 26 thru the 28th. I am still banned from my garage but hope to get back to work on the Thruxton in May.

cheers
John
 

brooke

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Having issues with my vision as well, getting very sensitive to light. Blaming it on to much screen time so with business sold and summer almost here it will be better.Just got New lenses,same prescription, but different colour and maximum tint plus polarized of course.They are a definite improvement. Winter is hard with short days ,snow cover and to many hockey games for which I wore sun glasses . Will be heading to the trail 2 weeks from today. Hope all goes well for you. Brooke
 

brooke

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Did some research on x pipe vs h pipe. Power difference was minuscule to say the least even in a compare with a beautifully made x pipe and crude h pipe. Could be all the changes we are seeing are from getting rid of the cat....Brooke
 
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