T120V 5 Speed - Indexing, False Neutrals Etc

speedrattle

Active Member
Riding for 245 Years
Local time
Today, 01:13
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
155
Points
27
Age
121
Location
usa
First Name
kevin
My Ride
T120
by the way, in america these covers are inexpensive. dunno about over on your side.


i would buy another and save the split one for somebody in another 100 years who doesn't have that option.
 

sikatri

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today, 00:13
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
1,191
Points
122
Age
61
Location
Houston
My Ride
2005 Triumph Thruxton 900
by the way, in america these covers are inexpensive. dunno about over on your side.


i would buy another and save the split one for somebody in another 100 years who doesn't have that option.
Just me, but I’d repair it just in case. Perhaps in a hundred years someone would lift a glass to me! LoL.
 

Woollybandit

Member
Riding for 47 Years
Local time
Today, 06:13
Joined
Sep 25, 2021
Messages
13
Points
7
Age
63
Location
UK
My Ride
‘71 T120V
The way things are going it will be illegal to own/run an internal combustion engine in 100 years.
This side of the Atlantic the foolish politicians say ICE will be illegal to build by 2030!
Either
(a) they are deluded beyond belief - no way that many vehicles will be bought or even bake to be charged so soon
(b) they intend to deny fuel engines to the general public
(c) that is the start of civil war

Off topic?
 

grandpaul

Old Bike Lover
Riding for 52 Years
Staff
Local time
Today, 00:13
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Messages
3,414
Points
302
Age
64
Location
Leander, Texas
My Ride
2000 Legend 900 Triple, 1969 Bonneville vintage roadracer
The way things are going it will be illegal to own/run an internal combustion engine in 100 years.
This side of the Atlantic the foolish politicians say ICE will be illegal to build by 2030!
Either
(a) they are deluded beyond belief - no way that many vehicles will be bought or even bake to be charged so soon
(b) they intend to deny fuel engines to the general public
(c) that is the start of civil war

Off topic?
SLIGHTLY off-topic, as it involves the fate of motorcycles.

It has been studied and confirmed there is NO WAY to have the electrical generation capacity required to CHARGE all of the world's EVs if the entire planet converted (as in, eliminate ICE engines). Not in 100 years, not even close.

Now, IF, TOMORROW a new discovery is made that will revolutionize electrical generation, it would still take DECADES to ramp up capacity (study the evolution of today's EVs and the evolution of the charging facilities. As it exists, I believe the available capacity represents SINGLE-DIGIT percentage of the world's vehicles.
 

Rudie

Staff
Local time
Today, 06:13
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
346
Points
57
Location
GB
My Ride
Several
New cover arrived today and new switch hand threads in 3/4 of the way then nips up almost like it bottoms out.
The new primary casing is 70-7318 (broken one is 70-8797) with straight cut thread to suit 60-3719 switch. It has the swage milled for the 4 valve pump but fits perfectly.
I've found an old switch which runs into the hole to the washer so maybe I'll wet and dry the peaks of the new switch threads and see how it goes in - the old switch was 9.8mm OD whilst the new is 10.1mm ….. a bit tight.
No, this is suspicious ...

The new primary casing is 70-7318 (broken one is 70-8797)
These are numbers actually cast on the covers? If so, it is a mildly complex subject ...

Part numbers printed in parts books are for 'finished' parts, that can be assembled to make a working motorcycle.

Triumph (and parent BSA) also used 'part numbers' to track work in progress within the factories. A number cast on a part (as opposed being stamped into it) was the 'part number' of an original casting, before machining and/or other finishing. In the case of something like the timing cover, that had to have the hole for the crank end and seals machined, the oilway end tapped either 3/8"-26 (pre 69) or 1/8"NPS (69 on), etc., the cast part number is not normally the same as the 'finished' part number.

However, 70-8797 is the part number printed in 68 650 parts books. 68 was threaded for a 26 tpi 3/8" Cycle bolt, not a larger-diameter and 27 tpi 1/8"NPS oil pressure switch ... So, because it is easy to find 70-8797 with Google:-

. either this is a pattern cover (that the pattern part maker cast "70-8797" on for potential customers who would be suspicious of the original Triumph cast part number because they could not find it with an internet search);

. or the cover was broken by an idiot PO trying to force in an oil pressure switch.

70-7318 is in between the 'finished' part numbers for 67 ((70-)E4567) and 68. The casting might have been machined to make a 'finished' E9246, as fitted 69 on and to your bike's engine originally, but it would be wise to check more carefully?

found an old switch which runs into the hole to the washer so maybe I'll wet and dry the peaks of the new switch threads
the old switch was 9.8mm OD whilst the new is 10.1mm ….. a bit tight.
No!

If you "don’t want to push my luck with the new cover", then know what you are doing! If you do not know what you are doing, Ask?

If you know "the old switch was 9.8mm OD whilst the new is 10.1mm" you are clearly measuring with something more accurate than an ordinary ruler.

You also obviously have an internet connected computer in front of you. So why do you not use it to look up the correct diameter of the switch you are supposed to be fitting?

"10.1mm" is 0.398"; I have posted already that the major diameter of 1/8"NPS is 0.405". 0.398" should not be "a bit tight" inside 0.405". Maybe read the beginning of my post #14 again ...

Otoh, "9.8 mm" is 0.386". By possibly an amazing near-coincidence, 1/8"BSP's major diameter is 0.383" ... and 1/8"BSP pressure switches are very common in the UK ...

found an old switch which runs into the hole to the washer
old switch was 9.8mm OD
If it is 1/8"BSP, it will be 28 tpi; this is obviously very close to both 27 tpi and 26 tpi; one of the symptoms of two tpi that similar but not the same is, "hand threads in [part] of the way then nips up almost like it bottoms out" ...

In addition to your calipers or micrometer, do you have 26, 27 and 28 tpi thread gauges? If you do, maybe break them out and clarify exactly what you have? If not, maybe order them online before proceeding much further?
 

speedrattle

Active Member
Riding for 245 Years
Local time
Today, 01:13
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
155
Points
27
Age
121
Location
usa
First Name
kevin
My Ride
T120
rudie's suggestions as to actually measuring what you are working with here are very pertinent.

most any of the oil pressure switches will almost fit in almost any cover. then if you crank down on the wrong switch to make it tight or to stop an oil seep the timing cover will crack.

all these motors are pushing 30 to 50 years or better. the timing cover on your machine may or may not be the one that the factory installed. in fact, it may have been replaced because the PO cracked it trying to tighten the wrong oil pressure switch.

measure the threads. see whether you have a straight or tapered hole. be attentive as you install the switch.
 

sikatri

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today, 00:13
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
1,191
Points
122
Age
61
Location
Houston
My Ride
2005 Triumph Thruxton 900
I’d do exactly what @Rudie noted above. You have to know exactly what the thread is in the cover and the device being threaded. There is no such thing as close.
 

grandpaul

Old Bike Lover
Riding for 52 Years
Staff
Local time
Today, 00:13
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Messages
3,414
Points
302
Age
64
Location
Leander, Texas
My Ride
2000 Legend 900 Triple, 1969 Bonneville vintage roadracer
You have to know exactly what the thread is in the cover and the device being threaded. There is no such thing as close.
Actually, the PROBLEM is, that there ARE things that are "close" but INCORRECT! Here you see a broken cover as a result of "close"...

(I know, nit-picking)
 

sikatri

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today, 00:13
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
1,191
Points
122
Age
61
Location
Houston
My Ride
2005 Triumph Thruxton 900
Actually, the PROBLEM is, that there ARE things that are "close" but INCORRECT! Here you see a broken cover as a result of "close"...

(I know, nit-picking)
Nit-pick away! LoL. I know what you mean. I replaced my carburetor screws and the set I received had one wrong threaded screw. Close. I caught it trying to screw it in and it felt different. I stopped and contacted the vendor. They quickly sent me a few more and apologized. If I had been inattentive I could have stripped the threads in the carburetor. Always should check. I should have checked the full set before starting.
 

Woollybandit

Member
Riding for 47 Years
Local time
Today, 06:13
Joined
Sep 25, 2021
Messages
13
Points
7
Age
63
Location
UK
My Ride
‘71 T120V
Ok, just back from the workshop.
The old dead switch that I found in my cabinet and goes straight into the new cover is definitely straight 9.8mm/0.39” OD measured with vernier and 27tpi
The one that came with the engine and 'nips up' 3/4 of the way in is also 27tpi measured using a thread gauge but is tapered 10.2-8.8mm. So …. glad I didn’t force it into my replacement cover! Just pinkies. Phew!
Old 70-8797 casing is (was) straight threaded but had that tapered switch wedged in, which is why it leaked. Will order new straight 3/8” now.
The 70-7318 is a exact match for the old one but is chromed and has space for a 4 valve pump, I believe is a LF Harris modern product. It will suffice until the 70-8797 alloy case comes from South Carolina later in the month. It doesn’t look too bad anyway
Btw, both cases have their numbers cast into the back as shown in photo.

Anyhow, I can’t express how much I appreciate your help here and sure glad I registered with this forum BEFORE reaching for my longest ring spanner!
I might have in ignorance sent another case to the scrapyard without your intervention. Side by side you can clearly see the taper, but not in isolation. Thanks Rudie.

0E24C63F-1F6D-485E-AA07-DFA6792421E5.jpegimage.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg
 

Woollybandit

Member
Riding for 47 Years
Local time
Today, 06:13
Joined
Sep 25, 2021
Messages
13
Points
7
Age
63
Location
UK
My Ride
‘71 T120V
Afterthought…… does anybody have experience of external pressure gauge fed from this port in place of the switch?
I have one on my FXDB and appreciate what’s really going on over revs and temperatures.
 

Greyfell

Proud Nerd
Riding for 4 Years
Local time
Yesterday, 22:13
Joined
May 4, 2016
Messages
3,065
Points
377
Age
65
Location
Northern California
First Name
Stephen
My Ride
2008 Triumph Bonneville T100 Ann-Margret
SLIGHTLY off-topic, as it involves the fate of motorcycles.

It has been studied and confirmed there is NO WAY to have the electrical generation capacity required to CHARGE all of the world's EVs if the entire planet converted (as in, eliminate ICE engines). Not in 100 years, not even close.

Now, IF, TOMORROW a new discovery is made that will revolutionize electrical generation, it would still take DECADES to ramp up capacity (study the evolution of today's EVs and the evolution of the charging facilities. As it exists, I believe the available capacity represents SINGLE-DIGIT percentage of the world's vehicles.
True. The only known existing technology capable of generating the required power is the hated nuclear power plant, a lot of them. Next, and maybe bigger, challenge is getting that power to the user, in the form those users can use. In the USA, nearly all neighborhoods are getting single-phase power, and the transmission transformers and cables were put in place for a certain design power usage. To change over to supporting just mostly electric vehicles (a ton more amperage/kilowatts) would require (in order)
1 revamping the transmission cables to 3-phase and much heavier-duty
2 adding or replacing transformers that are much larger (and preferably buried)
3 upgrading the neighborhoods for greater power usage (currently rated for about 10,000 amps)
4 upgrading homes for greater power usage (currently most modern homes are rated for 100 amps)

Making those improvements to the power grid will be insanely expensive and time consuming!

Putting an EV in your garage, could overload your house, but of course you charge the EV at night, right? But, here in California, we're told not to run air conditioner or major appliances between the peak hours 6PM and 9PM (which is also billed at a higher usage rate). But, if many people have EV's and charge during the night, Those nights will become the NEW peak usage times, and billed at the higher rate; so are you saving money, now?

We can't just think of how an EV affects our own lives; we have to think how they are going to affect our world, the bigger picture.
 

Rudie

Staff
Local time
Today, 06:13
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
346
Points
57
Location
GB
My Ride
Several
image-jpg.51102
The old dead switch that I found in my cabinet and goes straight into the new cover is definitely straight 9.8mm/0.39” OD measured with vernier and 27tpi
The one that came with the engine and 'nips up' 3/4 of the way in is also 27tpi measured using a thread gauge but is tapered 10.2-8.8mm.
If a "PO" of the T120V of the thread title simply looked in the contemporary parts book and ordered a new oil pressure switch by the listed part number - D2133 - most retailers do not give a damn and happily supply a current production NPT thread switch, although Meriden certainly did not build any twin engines with NPT threads after October 1968 ...

Nevertheless, that in itself would not be a problem if the current switch maker could actually make them accurately consistently
The switch on the right of the photo is current production ...

The switch on the left is either older by the current maker or a Veglia ...

Certainly neither is an original Smiths ...

Thanks Rudie.
(y) Pleased you dodged the bullet.
 

Woollybandit

Member
Riding for 47 Years
Local time
Today, 06:13
Joined
Sep 25, 2021
Messages
13
Points
7
Age
63
Location
UK
My Ride
‘71 T120V
The switch on the right of the photo is current production ...

The switch on the left is either older by the current maker or a Veglia ...

Certainly neither is an original Smiths ...


(y) Pleased you dodged the bullet.
Hehe, with this rebuild it feels like facing a Gatling gun!
 
Premium

Support TriumphTalk by becoming a Premium Member.

 What You Get

Donate

 

 

Search

Top Bottom