Triumph Model Year Charts - DaveM

[Rudie]

source I can look at for each model build for those numbers? 68-69, thanks if you can help.

Up to 69, usually simply look at the beginning of each parts book (e.g. British Only Tech Library), an early page in each gives the starting engine number of the model year. Subtract the number in one parts book from the the number in the following year's parts book and you usually have the number built in the model year.

That only works up to 69 because each model range used a separate number sequence, although it doesn't break down the numbers into separate versions - e.g. T120, T120R, TR6, TR6R, TR6C in the 650 range. It also assumes Meriden did not build a large batch of bikes for one customer before starting on the 'civilian' bikes; e.g. simple subtraction does not work for 66-67 C-range because Meriden built over 1100 3TA's for the Dutch Army before starting on the 67 range, the engine number in the 67 parts book is the first 'civilian' engine.

68 onwards, BSA used the same number sequence for both BSA and Triumph 250's. October 1968 onwards, Meriden used the same number sequence for all twins built there, irrespective of whether they were 350, 500, 650 or 750. You can still get an idea of some annual numbers from the parts books but it is less reliable than before 69.

 

[slickshifter]

Up to 69, usually simply look at the beginning of each parts book (e.g. British Only Tech Library), an early page in each gives the starting engine number of the model year. Subtract the number in one parts book from the the number in the following year's parts book and you usually have the number built in the model year.

That only works up to 69 because each model range used a separate number sequence, although it doesn't break down the numbers into separate versions - e.g. T120, T120R, TR6, TR6R, TR6C in the 650 range. It also assumes Meriden did not build a large batch of bikes for one customer before starting on the 'civilian' bikes; e.g. simple subtraction does not work for 66-67 C-range because Meriden built over 1100 3TA's for the Dutch Army before starting on the 67 range, the engine number in the 67 parts book is the first 'civilian' engine.

68 onwards, BSA used the same number sequence for both BSA and Triumph 250's. October 1968 onwards, Meriden used the same number sequence for all twins built there, irrespective of whether they were 350, 500, 650 or 750. You can still get an idea of some annual numbers from the parts books but it is less reliable than before 69.

So, if I understand you correctly, reliable model build numbers are not available, it would be best guess. The parts books you mention don't split the model numbers, and several don't list the engine No. designation. The transition between 1968-69 'H' & 'XC' seems problematic, making model build no's impossible to accurately determine. I suppose the only way would be a count of models from the Triumph Owners club dispatch records. Detail differences occurred thick and fast in this period, I'd be surprised if some one had not detailed it. JMO.

 

[Rudie]

reliable model build numbers are not available,

They are, just depends how much work you want to put in.

Often you would have to go back to original Meriden records - engine build books, bike build books, dispatch books. Aiui, TOMCC has copies, originals are in the VMCC (Vintage Motor Cycle Club) library.

Reason you need all three (or two from the introduction of the date-code-5-figure-number format) is a given bike was not always recorded the same ... Triumph T120C, T120TT and Trophy Specials gives an idea of the identification work involved in compiling accurate-ish numbers.

The transition between 1968-69 'H' & 'XC' seems problematic,

More detail is available on Justin Harvey-James Triumph C-Range website and in John Nelson's Triumph Tiger 100 And Daytona, Harry Woolridge's The Triumph Trophy Bible and Lindsay Brooke's/David Gaylin's Triumph Motorcycles In America:-

. TMIA says all of H65573-H67330 went to the US. TTTB says H66124-H66976 were T100C so H65573-H66123 and H66977-H67730 were almost certainly T100R.

. Justin was a volunteer in the VMCC library when he was building his website:-

Notes for 1969
With the introduction of the new numbering system the Factory Records change in the way machines are recorded.
They are no longer recorded by range and are instead all recorded together in large, fabric covered, punch bound ledgers.
Each entry shows the Engine and Frame code and number, the engine build date, machine assembly date, date to despatch, despatch date, invoice number and destination.
A separate set of records covers Engine Assembly and includes brief notes detailing new parts or assembly methods used.

1969 Production recorded in the new books begins with T120R Bonneville’s NC100-NC2034, with C Range production starting at PC5516 (30, 3TA Engines)
Production of the range is in three distinct batches XC 6297 to AC 9987, EC 17978 to EC19912 and HC24353 to JC 24839
December 1968 to Jan 1969, May 1969 and July and August 1969.

... interesting to note are:-

.. 30 3TA engines from PC[0]5516 - these must have been for an existing fleet customer as 3TA (and 5TA) were not available to the general public after the end of 66;

.. TT100AD confirms XC06279 was a Daytona, but does not specify T100R or T100T;

.. TTTB says the first T100C with a date-code-5-figure number was XC07583;

1969
Models Covered
1969 Triumph Tiger 90P 28 Police Machines

Notes for 1969
Parts Book No: 10
Note, though the T90 is shown only Police models were manufactured, destined for Ireland and possibly for the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary)

... are AC09937-AC09965 (although that is 29 numbers) aiui for the Garda (Republic Of Ireland police);

1969
Models Covered
1969 Triumph Tiger 100P 352 Machines (Police Models)

... AC09966-AC09987 went to the "White Helmets", the display team of the-then British Army Royal Signals regiment (the Royal Signals having historically used motorcycle dispatch riders);

.. I was surprised how 'late' in the model year Meriden was still making US versions; while TTTB says the last T100C was EC19426, TMIA says the last 69 500 that went to the US was HC24527 = July 1969.

A final curious anomaly is, while the website says the last 69 500 was JC24839 and John Nelson's Bonnie says the first 70 T120(R?) was JD24849, TTTB says the first 70 TR6 was HD23795 ... Could have been a foul up - whoever stamped engine numbers spent most of January 1969 stamping "AD" ...

the only way would be a count of models from
records.

You would need to do that if you wanted to know, say, T100T and T100S in 1969, no books about them ...

Detail differences occurred thick and fast in this period,

Not as fast as the mid 1960's, when there could be separate East Coast and West Coast variants of a US version ... BSA Group MD Harry Sturgeon wanted big increases in annual production numbers from 66, it might or might not be coincidence the number of different versions/variants actually produced at Meriden began to decline from around the same time?

 

[slickshifter]

They are, just depends how much work you want to put in.

Often you would have to go back to original Meriden records - engine build books, bike build books, dispatch books. Aiui, TOMCC has copies, originals are in the VMCC (Vintage Motor Cycle Club) library.

Reason you need all three (or two from the introduction of the date-code-5-figure-number format) is a given bike was not always recorded the same ... Triumph T120C, T120TT and Trophy Specials gives an idea of the identification work involved in compiling accurate-ish numbers.


More detail is available on Justin Harvey-James Triumph C-Range website and in John Nelson's Triumph Tiger 100 And Daytona, Harry Woolridge's The Triumph Trophy Bible and Lindsay Brooke's/David Gaylin's Triumph Motorcycles In America:-

. TMIA says all of H65573-H67330 went to the US. TTTB says H66124-H66976 were T100C so H65573-H66123 and H66977-H67730 were almost certainly T100R.

. Justin was a volunteer in the VMCC library when he was building his website:-


... interesting to note are:-

.. 30 3TA engines from PC[0]5516 - these must have been for an existing fleet customer as 3TA (and 5TA) were not available to the general public after the end of 66;

.. TT100AD confirms XC06279 was a Daytona, but does not specify T100R or T100T;

.. TTTB says the first T100C with a date-code-5-figure number was XC07583;


... are AC09937-AC09965 (although that is 29 numbers) aiui for the Garda (Republic Of Ireland police);


... AC09966-AC09987 went to the "White Helmets", the display team of the-then British Army Royal Signals regiment (the Royal Signals having historically used motorcycle dispatch riders);

.. I was surprised how 'late' in the model year Meriden was still making US versions; while TTTB says the last T100C was EC19426, TMIA says the last 69 500 that went to the US was HC24527 = July 1969.

A final curious anomaly is, while the website says the last 69 500 was JC24839 and John Nelson's Bonnie says the first 70 T120(R?) was JD24849, TTTB says the first 70 TR6 was HD23795 ... Could have been a foul up - whoever stamped engine numbers spent most of January 1969 stamping "AD" ...


You would need to do that if you wanted to know, say, T100T and T100S in 1969, no books about them ...


Not as fast as the mid 1960's, when there could be separate East Coast and West Coast variants of a US version ... BSA Group MD Harry Sturgeon wanted big increases in annual production numbers from 66, it might or might not be coincidence the number of different versions/variants actually produced at Meriden began to decline from around the same time?

That's very well analysed Rudie,
I've seen most of the references you mention and agree model rationalization was probably a factor. The RUC & particularly the WH were well recorded and I recall WH were used in promotional material. Yes, it is surprising how anomalies arise between counts, maybe memory fatigue.

Though I'd like to determine from the available material what the gaps are and perhaps fill them in, I suspect asking for the build books to be examined in such numbers and detail may be a big ask, and even then, with what you mention, could be a swamp worthy of staying clear from.