Warranty remap vs x pipe need advice

[brooke]

New warranty map vs x pipe ... If it’s not one thing it’s another. Finally received Montone decat from Wales no less , No rush to install it , not my style any more , and too cold anyway plus have made no progress on getting Tigger ready for Appalachia . So shortly after I get the decat I receive letter from Triumph re the stalling issue remap which of course is warranty. Should I install the pipe first or the remap ? My dealer ?x?x is2 hrs away but I will do the x pipe myself. ...?. Need advice thanks. ... Brooke

 

[green.sky]

Hi brooke

Can’t think of a reason why you wouldn’t be able to do it in whichever order you wish. Plenty of TTRs out here in the world that were de-catted before getting the updated map and no issues coming to the forefront that I’m aware of. (I follow another Triumph forum where these types of things are discussed routinely).

If you get the updated map before installing the Motone, I’d recommend doing an ECU forced adaptation process if I were you, although it wouldn’t be imperative. If you’re not familiar with that, it’s an extremely simple procedure that Triumph has instructions for. Requires no tools, virtually no effort, and approx 20 min of your time.

The remap update is quite worthwhile btw. I was surprised to find a truly transformative change in my ‘16 TTR, much more refined & smooth throttle response (particularly on launch, but noticeable to me in other ‘around town’ lower-speed shifting situations). Probably the way it should’ve been in the first place, but better late than never.

Hope this helps...

Jonathan

 

[green.sky]

If you get the updated map before installing the Motone, I’d recommend doing an ECU forced adaptation process if I were you, although it wouldn’t be imperative. If you’re not familiar with that, it’s an extremely simple procedure that Triumph has instructions for. Requires no tools, virtually no effort, and approx 20 min of your time.

I think I was a bit unclear here. My suggestion is to do the ECU forced adaptation process after you install the Motone, not after the remap.

Hope this helps..

Jonathan

 

[brooke]

thanks Jon . I assume you’re referring to the idling for 12.5 minutes thingy which I came across recently in some other forum. Is this an official Triumph update and where can I find it on the www. From what I see on DynoJohn’s charts A/F’s could be guite lean at low rpm and fit in with the poor low speed drive ability issue. Thanks for reaching out , appreciate it. Brooke

 

[green.sky]

Hi Brooke

Yes, it’s likely the ‘12 min’ procedure you’ve seen mentioned elsewhere, although the whole process actually takes a bit longer than that.

The ECUs on our Thruxtons are actually self-learning & calibrating devices that adjust fuel mapping (and perhaps other things?) as we ride. Meaning that, when you install your Motone, the ECU will actually do a fuel mapping adaptation for that change on its own over the period of a couple/few days of riding. So the ‘forced adaptation process’ isn’t actually necessary, it‘s just something you can do to make that adaptation process happen immediately, rather than having to wait for it to gradually happen on it’s own over time.

I’ve not (yet) de-catted my TTR but I did the forced adaptation process a couple of times, once after installing a pair of V&H cans, and again when I installed a Booster Plug. You can’t hurt anything by doing it, btw. The procedure is in Triumph's official Service Manual for the Thruxton R, which is not accessible for free unfortunately. Any (or all) parts of the service manual, as well as access to all service bulletins and recall information, can be downloaded with a paid subscription at this site: TriTun Redirect

I’ve downloaded some of it for my own use, and happy to share the Forced Adaptation info. The part I hilighted is really all you need to know to perform the procedure. The most important thing to remember (aside from doing it in a well ventilated area) is to not touch the throttle at all during the entire process. Start the bike, let it run its course, turn it off. Depending on the ambient conditions, it may need to run for quite awhile before you hear the cooling fan come on. Start timing the 12 min when you first hear the fan.
Hope this helps..

Jonathan

 

[brooke]

Thanks Jon... My re map notice is dated March 7 although I just picked it up at my “old business” a few days ago. Is that the date for US bikes too ? What is a booster plug?.....Brooke

 

[green.sky]

Brooke,

I've still never received an official notification from Triumph. The update became available at the very beginning of February here in the States. Some folks were notified directly by their dealers about it. I became aware of it by word of mouth (forums) and then called my dealership to check on it. They confirmed that it had just been released (they didn't even know themselves until I called) and I went in to have it done on Feb 5th.

BoosterPlug:
BoosterPlug - Release the Power in your Motorcycle

I took a chance on this last year after hearing that some TTR owners felt improvement with it (some reported smoother throttle response, some believed it made the engine a tad peppier, although I'm not aware of any dyno testing to corroborate that). Ironically, the claimed improvements by BoosterPlug itself seem to address similar issues that this new re-map addresses. That being said, my own experience with the BoosterPlug was positive but subtle. I believe it did add a tad more refinement to throttle response and power delivery. The new re-map made a *very* noticeable difference to me however. Much greater improvement than the addition of the BoosterPlug (although I still have the BoosterPlug installed, so I guess they're working in concert with each other). I have put well over 1000 miles on the Thruxton since the update, a benefit of living down south , and I'm still marveling at how much better it seems to be since the re-map.
Regards

Jonathan

 

[brooke]

Thanks again Brooke

 

[iGadget]

The remap is just to address the stalling, and looks to have corrected the accelerator pump mapping (the burst of fuel when you twist the throttle). I experimented with a PCV accelerator pump and could reproduce the stalling issue, and I measured the A/F and performance on the dyno immediately after the new tune was installed and it made no difference to power or A/F in any other area of the RPM/load range.
This means it makes no difference to whether you have an x-pipe installed or not, so do it in any order you like.

The adaption process is done when they remap it, as the Triumph software let's them apply it instantly. It only effects idle though, so most of the claims of "my bike runs so much better now" are probably placebo, but if it makes people happy...

> From what I see on DynoJohn’s charts A/F’s could be guite lean at low rpm and fit in with the poor low speed drive ability issue

Well, of all the Thruxton's we've run on the dyno I have never seen one that ever runs lean under any situation other than over-run (when the injectors are almost turned off). There is a wealth of contradicting evidence about this out there, but we have the latest DynoJet system with a brand-new dual A/F sensor, and it tells us that the bikes run rich at all times except idle and cruise (when the O2 sensors lock the mixture to 14.7:1). Dyno gas analysers will indicate lean if the intake is partially blocked, there is an air-leak, the wide-band sensor is contaminated, the bike has SAI (ours doesn't), or even if the sensor is more than a couple of years old. They will pretty much never indicate over-rich unless the bike really is rich.
This is one reason I don't suggest people use a BoosterPlug, as it's simply intended to richen fuelling, which is great on a bike with no O2 sensors that runs slightly lean, but on our bikes it will still be 14.7:1 at idle and cruise, and simply over-rich under acceleration.

 

[brooke]

Jon does the remap cure that loud detonation I was getting some times just above idle ? Seemed to occur after refueling at a remote set of pumps. Brooke

 

[green.sky]

Hi Brooke... sorry about the delayed response.

I'm a bit unsure about what you mean by 'loud detonation'. The only thing similar that I've experienced (and perhaps this is what you are referring to) is the popping or 'spitting' sound that many (most?) TTR owners have during off-throttle deceleration, most noticeable during medium-slow speed engine braking. I personally quite like it. Others seem to try to have it curtailed. I wouldn't call it particularly loud however. The re-map had no effect on that phenomenon for me, btw. As was most effectively stated by @iGadget in his above post, the purpose of the re-map is to prevent the occasional low speed stalling during throttle roll-on, particularly from idle. Low speed throttle response is much improved for me since having it done. I'm also one of the beneficiaries of, and enjoying, my placebo effect re: smoother throttle response when shifting throughout the gear range and at higher speeds as well. YMMV

Hope this helps. And if not, perhaps more detail about your loud detonation issue might elicit a response from someone in-the-know.

Jonathan

 

[dynajohn]

The remap is just to address the stalling, and looks to have corrected the accelerator pump mapping (the burst of fuel when you twist the throttle). I experimented with a PCV accelerator pump and could reproduce the stalling issue, and I measured the A/F and performance on the dyno immediately after the new tune was installed and it made no difference to power or A/F in any other area of the RPM/load range.
This means it makes no difference to whether you have an x-pipe installed or not, so do it in any order you like.

The adaption process is done when they remap it, as the Triumph software let's them apply it instantly. It only effects idle though, so most of the claims of "my bike runs so much better now" are probably placebo, but if it makes people happy...



Well, of all the Thruxton's we've run on the dyno I have never seen one that ever runs lean under any situation other than over-run (when the injectors are almost turned off). There is a wealth of contradicting evidence about this out there, but we have the latest DynoJet system with a brand-new dual A/F sensor, and it tells us that the bikes run rich at all times except idle and cruise (when the O2 sensors lock the mixture to 14.7:1). Dyno gas analysers will indicate lean if the intake is partially blocked, there is an air-leak, the wide-band sensor is contaminated, the bike has SAI (ours doesn't), or even if the sensor is more than a couple of years old. They will pretty much never indicate over-rich unless the bike really is rich.
This is one reason I don't suggest people use a BoosterPlug, as it's simply intended to richen fuelling, which is great on a bike with no O2 sensors that runs slightly lean, but on our bikes it will still be 14.7:1 at idle and cruise, and simply over-rich under acceleration.

John. Was just comparing your graphs to those from Tec on the 900. Would appear the 900 has no built in throttle pull back as you find on the R and certainly no mention of it in the video.This would make sense as the restricting single throttle body could most likely do the job single handedly. Also on your first graph the stock hp line seems to affected more by pull back than the modified line. Is the increased air flow of the modification making it hard for the throttle plates to close as the much as the ECU would like ? What is the mechanical system used to do this ? If the smaller engines have no restriction system , it would certainly explain why they are finding it easier going than the 1200 cc guys.

igadget we identified the original problem for the stalling and resolved it through the power commander 5 mapping. This information was shared with Triumph tech support here in the USA. I recently received the recall notice but didn't feel the need to update my Thruxton R. Here most of the gasoline sold is blended 10% alcohol because of air pollution standards which has a stoic value of 14.2/1 not the 14.7/1 of unblended gas. 14/7/1 is on the lean side running this blended fuel.
I have found where we used to run F/A ratios of around 13.2/1 for best performance with non alcohol blended pump fuel we have to run 13/1 or even 12.9 or 12.8 depending on the motorcycle manufacturer.

Brooke, I would get the re-flash now before you do any modifications, especially if you are not going to install a DJ PC5.

Brooke, no the modifications we did (cam, pipes/mufflers, intake snorkel, Power Commander 5, tuning) had no affect on the throttle pullback. The dyno HP curve takes a slight dip when the throttle plates close to 85% and then recovers but there is no further increase in HP all the way to 7,800 RPM. The additional RPM simply makes the bike easier to ride, particularly in first gear without hitting the rev limiter. This was a side benefit of using the rev extend feature on the PC 5 when we were experimenting to see what effect addition RPM"s would have on HP & TQ. Before any of you tech heads jump on me for dangerously setting the RPM limiter above the stock Triumph limiter the piston speed with the stock limiter in place is very conservative and the higher RPM limit piston speed is still relatively low. There is a Triumph shop in Texas that has de-stroked the 1200 motor to 900cc and using the stock rod bearings spun these engine to over 11,000 RPM with no bearing failures.

 

[green.sky]

Hi @dynajohn ...

Thx for the informative post. Looking forward to reading thru your ‘Progress in finding more engine performance’ thread. Can you share the name & location of the shop in Texas you’re mentioning here?
Much appreciated.

Jonathan

...There is a Triumph shop in Texas that has de-stroked the 1200 motor to 900cc and using the stock rod bearings spun these engine to over 11,000 RPM with no bearing failures.

 

[Two Alpha]

Another Canadian in need of the remap for my TTR, nearest dealer is about 900 miles away and I am scheduled in there for June 15th. Hopefully in that sweet spot between late snow and the Spring floods.
Haven't ordered the Motone de-cat yet, soon though.

 

[brooke]

Just to clarify, what my R does is when sitting at idle for a few moments and cracking throttle guickly but perhaps only slightly under no load it detonates loudly and stalls instantly. I am sure it is trying to reverse the direction of the crank ! Brooke

 

[green.sky]

Just to clarify, what my R does is when sitting at idle for a few moments and cracking throttle guickly but perhaps only slightly under no load it detonates loudly and stalls instantly. I am sure it is trying to reverse the direction of the crank ! Brooke

Brooke... I'm only just today seeing your post . What you're describing sounds very much like the 'stalling issue' that the remap is supposed to cure. Have you had that remap done yet? If not, I recommend that you do.

 

[brooke]

Thanks GS. Got my notice of remap and waiting for a convenient day to cross that 9 mile long bridge to the dealer. Good to hear it sounds like my issue , got mine in May 2016 , and hard to believe it took this long for a fix . All the best Brooke...

 

[brooke]

Thanks GS. Got my notice of remap and waiting for a convenient day to cross that 9 mile long bridge to the dealer. Good to hear it sounds like my issue , got mine in May 2016 , and hard to believe it took this long for a fix . All the best Brooke...

Finally got the update done and yes It
is a nice improvement . Eliminates the stalling issues and just plain works way better at low rpm

 

[nickjaxe]

If it helps.....my triumph dealer said to me when I asked about fitting a de cat kit to my near new T100.....when asked if it could have a knock on if I fit the device re warrenty.....no he said....1000ss fit them.....we will even fit it for you if req....its not a problem.

I know that may not be what you were asking but just adding it for interest.

 

[brooke]

If it helps.....my triumph dealer said to me when I asked about fitting a de cat kit to my near new T100.....when asked if it could have a knock on if I fit the device re warrenty.....no he said....1000ss fit them.....we will even fit it for you if req....its not a problem.

I know that may not be what you were asking but just adding it for interest.

Yep , given enough time (years) some dealers were able to make the 180 on that subject . If you haven’t picked one out yet give the Motone serious consideration . It’s not much more money and worth it . IMO , just saying