T-bird Dies After 4-5 Minutes- IGNITER?

[dearborn]

My '96 Thunderbird has been 100% reliable in the 7 or 8 years I've owned it- ZERO issues! UNTIL...last week while crawling along in annual Detroit "Dream Cruise", (50,000+ cars, 17 miles long, million+ spectators!), it got REALLY hot, stalled, would not start. Let sit for about 2 hours- started right up. Rode about a mile to my brother's house, turned it off. After about 45 min. started right up, ran about 5 minutes, died. Cranks, no start. Pushed back to brothers, let sit about 2 hours, starts right up, but don't want to risk being stranded. Came back with pickup next day, unload it at home, starts right up, runs 4-5 minutes, dies. Fuel starvation?- tank about 3/4 full, but no visible flow at in-line filter after fuel tap. Disconnect fuel line at tap, connect drain hose to tap- unrestricted flow. Remove fuel tank, found about a teaspoon of debris packed around reserve pickup tube. Clean tank & fuel tap, replace in-line filter. Cold engine, unrestricted fuel flow to filter, starts up, runs about 5 minutes till hot, dies. No spark. Check coils- all ok, readings within spec on both Haynes and factory Triumph workshop manuals. Check pick-up trigger- all within spec. Only thing left is igniter and no way to check. Igniters control timing, etc, so different models used different igniters. Anyone have experience with aftermarket suppliers? Or swapping igniters from different models? Anyone repair them?

 

[shanered6]

It sounds like coils to me a very common fault on the early triumphs .... check after starting if the coil packs get hot if so there goosed !
It might be the pickup ? but they generally just quit full stop and dont work again .

Another thing you can check is the fuel filters which are in the T lines were the fuel lines connect to the carbs .

 

[dearborn]

Coils check within spec, but I will run it with a slave tank to check your suggestion. All three coils can fail simultaneously? It DID get very hot. I am wondering if engine vacuum can somehow affect fuel flow? With bowl drains open, I can blow air through supply line and out drains. Tank has cream color "liner" which is what debris found inside tank at reserve strainer appeared to be- found about a teaspoon packed around strainer. Did Triumph coat the inside of tanks? (BMW did in '80s-'90s). Maybe previous owner? ALL fuel locally has 10% ethanol- dissolving liner mat'l? All float bowls were clean, in-line filter was clean, but did not seem to flow very well, so was replaced with larger unit and all pilot jets were clear. Looking at prices for replacement igniter- part #T1290063- just about caused a heart attack!!- $761.80 from Triumph dealer IF he had one! or near $400 USD USED! on Ebay or $330 aftermarket "VECTRIQ" Gee, these bikes in nice condition in USA only sell for about $2500 to $3000 or so, hard to swallow $400-$800 for a part that can't be checked to be sure it's the problem. LOVE this bike, but Hinckley Triumph 3 or 4 cyl. parts have always been a PIA in USA. Spent a whole day going from Japan bike dealer to dealer just looking for Mikuni main jets!- finally found 'em at local Chinese moped shop.

 

[shanered6]

There sould be a heat shield under the coils but if you got them very hot then they have a tendency to fry , once that happens they all die together .

 

[dearborn]

Eliminated fuel starvation as problem.
Ran bike on slave tank- same problem- coils not hot. AH...but no heat shield under coils. primary resistance on coils all at 1,1ohms- bad? But runs great for about 4-5 minutes, (until warm)- then dies with no spark. I'm thinking igniter and they are $$$$$!! USED T1290063 -$400! Aftermarket "VECTRIQ" replacement $375, located 2 new OEM $761 plus ship!!!!! But can't prove igniter is faulty. Took igniter to Triumph dealer- "We have no way to test that" they said.
Does anyone know if Trident or trophy igniter is replacement for Thunderbird? 1996 Thunderbird/Thunderbird Sport igniter is T1290063, '96 Trophy is T1290075, Trident is T1290060. These last two are more plentiful/easier to find (good used) than the 0063 part. Is it possible that swapping to one of these other igniters might be a performance upgrade/

 

[solomon]

Maybe get some cheap coils, swap, see if problem persists?
Or when got and cuts out, then check if there's a strong spark?
Sometimes a poor electrical connection fails when gets warm. Check ignition circuit wiring and connections, visually. Check with multimeter after cutout?

Although, even if all coils are damaged, surely they wouldn't cut out exactly at same time? Engine would run one, two cylinders for a while.

 

[sikatri]

Sounds like a pickup coil failure. Had one with my 2005 Thruxton. When warm it would die. The coil has a failure, a break, and once warm it expands enough to not be continuous, the break expands. Once it cools down it works again.

 

[atomsplitter]

One coil can sabotage the igniter. Happened on my 99 Trophy 1200 back in the day. It uses two coils and when one had an open the other quit firing as well, so no spark. Replaced one coil and it fired right up. The second coil burned out a month later and I replaced both that time round and kept the slightly used one as a spare.

 

[sikatri]

One coil can sabotage the igniter. Happened on my 99 Trophy 1200 back in the day. It uses two coils and when one had an open the other quit firing as well, so no spark. Replaced one coil and it fired right up. The second coil burned out a month later and I replaced both that time round and kept the slightly used one as a spare.

I had both ignition coils go and then short time later the pickup coil. They are parts that eventually wear out. Easy to replace though.

 

[solomon]

I had both ignition coils go and then short time later the pickup coil. They are parts that eventually wear out. Easy to replace though.

That's progress. There's Meriden bikes with 50 year-old coils riding about. Never realised coils wear out.

 

[sikatri]

That's progress. There's Meriden bikes with 50 year-old coils riding about. Never realised coils wear out.

I’m pretty sure that it’s a quality issue.

 

[dearborn]

Maybe get some cheap coils, swap, see if problem persists?
Or when got and cuts out, then check if there's a strong spark?
Sometimes a poor electrical connection fails when gets warm. Check ignition circuit wiring and connections, visually. Check with multimeter after cutout?

Although, even if all coils are damaged, surely they wouldn't cut out exactly at same time? Engine would run one, two cylinders for a while.

There is a "no spark" condition when warm. I have one of those laser temp. sensors- at startup when cold, all are uniform ambient temp. As engine warms, coil temps will go up in response to engine heating surrounding air with coil closest to engine, (most forward) being most affected. Most rearward coil will go to about 126 deg.f., middle about 136 deg.f and most forward as much as 175 deg.f. HOWEVER- placing a bit of cardboard as a heat shield will bring all 3 to around 125 deg.f which seems to be a reasonable range being that close to a running engine on lift.
Your suspicion of temp related poor connection is a good one. But all 3 coils read same resistance before cold start and after stall and "no spark" condition. Pickup coil is also within spec before/after. So, I'm assuming the problem is with igniter. No temp variation before/after found on outside of plastic housing. This thing has really got me stumped and looks like it's going to be $$$$$$

 

[dearborn]

That's progress. There's Meriden bikes with 50 year-old coils riding about. Never realised coils wear out.

German (PVL?) coils on my Norton Commando are 35 years old and maybe 80k+ miles- still fine! But multiple crappy Lucas RITA units not so much! Old analog Boyer unit 30+ years old and still OK, even with electric start!

 

[sikatri]

The pickup coil will only show fail when it reaches normal operating temperature. As soon as it cools down it will act normal.

 

[dearborn]

Atomsplitter; When coil failed what were symptoms? I am assuming a high resistance in either primary or secondary windings? factory spec for coils is .630 ohms, +/- 10%. Mine- all 3- read 1.1ohms before/after no start condition. When it starts-when cold- it runs perfectly, leading me to believe that despite high ohms reading, coils are functioning OK

 

[dearborn]

The pickup coil will only show fail when it reaches normal operating temperature. As soon as it cools down it will act normal.

Ah! pickup coil was within spec, BUT was checked with cold engine. Will check again both before AND after. My error- your diagnosis/suggestion is a good one!

 

[atomsplitter]

Atomsplitter; When coil failed what were symptoms? I am assuming a high resistance in either primary or secondary windings? factory spec for coils is .630 ohms, +/- 10%. Mine- all 3- read 1.1ohms before/after no start condition. When it starts-when cold- it runs perfectly, leading me to believe that despite high ohms reading, coils are functioning OK

The bike would not fire on any cylinder, I didn't have an ohm meter with me when it happened because I was on vacation 2 states away from my shop. I took the bike directly to the dealer when I got back and they found the left side coil was shot (infinite resistance, i.e. open cirsuit). They replaced it and I thought that would be the last of it, until it wouldn't start a month later and not even a kick over or back fire or anything again. So I replaced both coils and it fired right up. Rode it for another 4 years and sold it with those coils still in it. If the coil is showing higher than normal resistance cold as it heats up the resistance goes up with it. Temperature induced I square R losses ensue. The igniter may not be putting out enough voltage to fire the coil when the coil is hot. In my case with the open circuit the igniter quit firing at all.

 

[dearborn]

The bike would not fire on any cylinder, I didn't have an ohm meter with me when it happened because I was on vacation 2 states away from my shop. I took the bike directly to the dealer when I got back and they found the left side coil was shot (infinite resistance, i.e. open cirsuit). They replaced it and I thought that would be the last of it, until it wouldn't start a month later and not even a kick over or back fire or anything again. So I replaced both coils and it fired right up. Rode it for another 4 years and sold it with those coils still in it. If the coil is showing higher than normal resistance cold as it heats up the resistance goes up with it. Temperature induced I square R losses ensue. The igniter may not be putting out enough voltage to fire the coil when the coil is hot. In my case with the open circuit the igniter quit firing at all.

Yes, coils- all 3- ARE showing higher resistance when cold- about 1.1ohm. Stupidly, I checked pickup coil when cold, but NOT when hot. Your diagnosis seems correct. Will repeat tests running bike on lift with slave tank until engine warm and "no spark" condition returns. Contacted Paul Messenger on FB about stick coils- 220 UK Pounds incl. shipping. (no "pound" key on USA keyboard). So, solutions are- pickup coil, about $110 USD, coils- about $150 to about $275, or igniter- $350-$800, all in USD vs UK Pound at current exchange rates, all sourced from UK as no USA suppliers for these parts.

 

[dearborn]

Yes, coils- all 3- ARE showing higher resistance when cold- about 1.1ohm. Stupidly, I checked pickup coil when cold, but NOT when hot. Your diagnosis seems correct. Will repeat tests running bike on lift with slave tank until engine warm and "no spark" condition returns. Contacted Paul Messenger on FB about stick coils- 220 UK Pounds incl. shipping. (no "pound" key on USA keyboard). So, solutions are- pickup coil, about $110 USD, coils- about $150 to about $275, or igniter- $350-$800, all in USD vs UK Pound at current exchange rates, all sourced from UK as no USA suppliers for these parts.

Except coils- listed on Triumph dealer website at $196 but not clear as to whether that is EACH or for set of 3, ans they will be the crappy "GILL" units that are notorious for failure.

 

[solomon]

Strewth, knock me sideways. A no-brand dual coil is under £20. Only work for two cylinders though.